GRAND WALKS Episode 5: Discovering our Downtown with Kathy McLaughlin

Daniel Bennett

[ethereal background music]

Welcome to the Grand Walks. I'm your host, Daniel Bennett. Since the pandemic's preventing us from making theatre, we're focusing the spotlight out into the community to learn more about some London locals and their favorite places. Today we're diving into downtown with Kathy McLaughlin, who has lived and worked in London’s core for a majority of her career. We're going to talk about growth in the core, our favorite businesses, and our love of and wistfulness for live events.

By now, hopefully, you're standing at the starting place of the spot, which is at the Forks of the Thames overlooking the water fountain, slightly north of the splash pad, and have had the opportunity to look at the map and directions. Listen for me or Kathy giving location markers and that's how you'll know where you are in relation to us. Feel free to speed up, slow down, or give us a pause if you need to. Heads up! We're going to be taking a stop in front of Waldos, Stache, Grace, and London Music Hall to talk about those wonderful places.

I'll let you know when it's time to start walking but for now, let's take in the sights around you, while listening to Lacie George costumer at the Grand Theatre, who will start us off with a Land Acknowledgement.
 

The Forks of Thames River

Lacie George

[nature sounds]

Waase’aabinokwe N’dizhnikaaz

Anishnaabe kwe niin daaw

Kikonaang miinwaa Zaagiing doonjibaa

Mzhiikehn Doodem

Maandaawkwe daansan

Jigjigneshiikwe Ooshenyan

Zhaawnannkwadokwe tkobdoonsan

This walk was recorded in London, Ontario, the traditional lands of the Attawandaron (also known as the Neutral) people and territories associated with various treaties of the Anishinaabeg, Haudenosaunee, and Lunaapewak. Locally, there are three First Nations communities. They are the Chippewas of the Thames First Nation, the Oneida Nation of the Thames and the Munsee Delaware Nation. We would also like to recognize the urban Indigenous urban populations, comprised of First Nations, Métis, and Inuit people. We acknowledge the traditional lands upon which we operate, as well as all the sacred waterways.

[swoosh and bell sound]
 

Daniel Bennett

And can you tell me why you were interested in starting your walk here?

Kathy McLaughlin stands at the start of the route, with Kensington Bridge in the background

Kathy McLaughlin

The water was a lot higher back in the 1800s, I guess. And there are a bunch of people who had been out on a beautiful, you know, trip along the river on a beautiful riverboat, and they came back here and I guess, there was something on one side of the boat that they were all rushing over to see and actually capsized the boat. And a number of people drowned. So very tragic, very tragic. And it's interesting to me, because not only because of that part of history but also because they say that's why a lot of the buildings downtown are haunted. Because they used a lot of the commercial buildings as temporary morgues for all of these bodies of the people who perished at that time on the riverboat disaster. And, you know, we hear stories all the time from building owners and people, employees of stores, that there are some interesting things going on in those buildings, and they attribute it to that disaster and the souls that have never found rest.

Daniel Bennett

Wow, there's so much history here at the Forks of the Thames, isn't there?

Daniel Bennett stands at the start of the route

Kathy McLaughlin

Well, it's really where our community started, right? And that's what I love about this place. Not only is it beautiful, natural, and a lot of Londoners don't even realize that we have a riverfront or a waterfront, and we kind of as Londoners turn our back on the river, but it's a beautiful natural area. And you know, it's when you come down here, you understand how important it is to clean up the river too, and to, you know, listen to the First Nations and to listen to all of the ... the people who are the stewards of the river and do what we can to stop the pollution and, you know, make it healthy and make it vibrant because this is where London began. And even before it was London, you know, when it was the Antler River and the First Nations were here, and there's a lot of history here a lot of stories to be told, that's what I love about this area. Not only that, but it's also beautiful.

The Kensington Bridge

Daniel Bennett

And so, it's steeped in a lot of history.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

What do you imagine for the future of this space?

Kathy McLaughlin

Oh, well, you know, there's a ton of potential obviously, if we don't over-develop it. Like there was that great initiative, that great competition that the London Community Foundation did, and the plan for the ribbon of the Thames--that cool promenade that was going to, you know, go out into the water, and it'd be an observation point. And I think, you know, hopefully, that will come in the future, but the people at the London Community Foundation very wisely decided that it's more important to put their money into housing now, because of our you know, homelessness issues or poverty issues. It would have been easy to go ahead with that, you know, sexy project and get people to invest in it, and that probably could have happened, but I'm really proud of them for choosing you know, people first.

And that this project can always happen in the future when you know, maybe there's a little bit more prosperity and everybody in our community is doing a little better, then you know, we can all enjoy it because one of the things I love about places like this is this is for all Londoners. You know, it's for everybody to come and enjoy. And we can still do that and we will hopefully continue to do it more in the future. And what I'd like to see in the future is maybe a cleaner river.

You know, it's beautiful when we have, you know, the fountain is spraying water into the river. It's a bit low right now. But it's a lovely natural area, and hopefully it will be maintained. Lots of people are, you know, carrying on fitness activities, running, cycling, doing the things people love to do, but it's also a gathering space. And I think that it's an important gathering space for us as Londoners too.

Daniel Bennett

I agree with that. This used to be my favourite place to watch the sunset, there's a bench that no longer here, but I used to sit there and watch the sunset go behind that giant tree next to ... next to the fountain. And it was one of my favourite things to do.

Kathy McLaughlin

How lovely, and so peaceful too.

Daniel Bennett

Very peaceful.

Kathy McLaughlin

And that's it. It's a, it's a calm spot in the heart of our city. That's what I love about it as well. I like to bring visitors here because this is a side of London that they typically don't see. So, when I'm taking people around on a walking tour, and even the students that I tour around with every fall for the Urban Geography program, I always bring them down here because I think this is so inspiring. And it's not the view of London that most people get, you know, apart from in the tourism brochures, which you know, locals don't tend to read. So, I just want to be sure that people get to enjoy this too, not just the folks who are on the bike trail, or the people who are going to the park the splash pad. This is for everybody.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. Well, let's start heading downtown. So, we'll turn around and walk by the splash pad here and head toward King Street. And on our way towards downtown, can you tell me the story about how you came here to London?

Kathy McLaughlin

Yeah, so I was born here. And I've lived in Toronto and Oshawa, but always came back. And I lived downtown for 20 years. So, I lived, I used to work at London Life, and as a corporate employee, I lived downtown and just loved it. So, I was looking for a volunteer opportunity, and that brought me to an organization called Main Street London, and I really enjoyed the work and it turned into a job.

Daniel Bennett

I love coming up .... and we're seeing these new buildings here that are going up. Do you know anything about them?

Kathy McLaughlin

The building in the distance is the Riverwalk building, which is the Tricar development, and it's one of a few they've done downtown, now. I can speak about how important in general residential developments are to the core, because we really, we really need more customers for the downtown businesses. So, when we have these buildings, it brings more people into the restaurants, brings more people into the stores, and it gives us a new customer base. And it's interesting because a lot of the people are Londoners who you know, lived in the suburbs, empty nesters, kids are all gone, and they want to have a great lifestyle. And downtown is definitely a place where they can have a great lifestyle. There's so much to do here, so much to see here. And you know, when you're poised here overlooking the Thames, it doesn't get much better. I would say, you know, there are lots of great opportunities all over, but this is a pretty cool development.

The Info-Tech building

Daniel Bennett

I know I'm a downtown dweller myself, and I love it because you get, like you're saying, you get nature, but you get access to all the best buildings and all the best restaurants.

Kathy McLaughlin

We think so, thank you. I mean, there's lots of great places all over the city, but I think we have more of them downtown than anywhere else. So. you know, it's a nice cluster.

Daniel Bennett

Can you speak any more about densification of London?

Kathy McLaughlin

Well, it is part of the London Plan to intensify the core, and there you know, different reasons for that. Obviously, we want to improve our core, because your core is your calling card of the city. And if you don't have a great core people don't have a great impression of your city, which means they might not move here might, not bring jobs here, might not invest here. So, for those reasons, it's really important to improve our downtown.

Daniel Bennett

I totally agree with you. You know there's, I think there's a big push right now. We're seeing lots of development happening in the downtown core. We're seeing lots of residential buildings go up, and I'm really excited by that myself.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yeah, so... but so am I. Not just to make the downtown happy, but also because it costs a whole lot less to do that than to sprawl because we have all the infrastructure here already. And some of these, well, I'm just noticing the back doors there on the redeveloped Info-Tech, that's a beautiful project. What I was going to say about intensification is that it really does help the taxpayers because we don't have to lay all those new sewers and water lines out to the 'burbs, and beyond into the farmlands. And we can preserve our farmlands for farms to help feed our city. And then other than that, you know, it's obviously good, good practice, economic practice, to intensify the core.

Cities all over the world are doing this not just London, Ontario. But I think a lot of Londoners don't know that the London Plan, which was approved by Council a few years ago, calls for that intensification. So, we are supposed to be doing this. So, the developers are doing a good job of, you know, committing to these places, and building interesting residential developments, and, you know, there's a whole mix of developments, too. It's not just luxury condos. There are also affordable housing buildings as well, and we do need that mix. Because again, this is everyone's downtown. And we have to have housing that works for everyone. Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

You mentioned the Infotech building, and I have to agree, I love those, I love those old doors, with the diagonal woodwork on them.

Another view of the Info-Tech building and a neighbouring restaurant

Kathy McLaughlin

Yes, yeah, and those beautiful windows.

Daniel Bennett

And beautiful windows. And we won't go there this time, but on the other side, it's actually I think, my favorite building in London, because of the houndstooth, well, not on the only reason, but because of the houndstooth stonework in the ... in the driveway, I think that's like, it's like something I haven't seen before.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yeah, Yeah. Nicholson Sheffield did a really great job on the rehab of this whole block. So, Infotech was in the church on Queens Ave, and outgrew that space, and they made a commitment. You know, they're very much to be admired and thanked for making this commitment to this beautiful block of heritage buildings. And they've retained all of the heritage features, and are using it as a workplace for their team. There was a restaurant here that unfortunately didn't work out, but there will be an opportunity for somebody else to go in there. And one of the few restaurants that had parking right behind it as part of its deal with the landlord.

Daniel Bennett

How important is it for you that developers respect the heritage? Because there's so much history here in London. Respect the heritage buildings…

Kathy McLaughlin

Well, it's always a balance, right? I mean, you can't, you can't save everything, you can't preserve everything. But it is an important part of our character and our history. And you know, wherever it's possible, we do try to encourage that. There are incentives available from the city to help pay for facade improvements, to retain all these beautiful heritage features. We do know a lot of contractors as well who do that specialized work because it is highly specialized.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. You know, as a technical director, I'm, sometimes we're invested in building things, it's oftentimes harder to modify something that already exists than it is to build new. And that question comes up so much in... in theatre.

Kathy McLaughlin

Absolutely. But that is why there are incentives available to help. And a lot of that part, a good part of the downtown is part of a Heritage Conservation District. So, we don't have the ability to just tear everything down. It's against the bylaws. And it would be very expensive if somebody went against those bylaws. The fines are significant, but you know, we want to work with our heritage, I guess really, that's more than message and that we can integrate it with new developments.

A perfect example of that is Budweiser Gardens. You know, that northeast corner of Budweiser Gardens, basically is a tribute to the old Talbot Inn that used to stand on that same ground. They didn't have to develop it that way, but it was a kind of a nod. I know the heritage community might have thought they'd rather see the old buildings there, but it was kind of a nod to what used to stand there. And anybody who was around before Budweiser Gardens was built, will remember the Talbot Inn or remember the FireHall, remember some really great nights of fun in that place. And you know, that's those landmarks are part of our history, too. Right? It's part of our cultural history. And there are a lot of cultural touchstones downtown as well, that you know, used to be performance venues, used to be cultural hubs. And we honor those places and we want to see more of them, because, you know, downtown is an important heart of our arts and culture community. And we really do want to improve that and retain it. And it's one of the reasons why it's so hard to see now what's going on in the culture section, in the music industry, all of those wonderful things that bring people downtown are not able to operate as usual. And it's really tragic.

As I was coming down here, thinking about what we all have in common, the Grand Theatre, lots of organizations in London, the city of London and a lot of what we do is similar in terms of storytelling. So, telling the story of our downtown, you know, its past, its present, its future, but also placemaking. And kind of like, you know, creating the setting for interesting experiences and unique experiences. Because that's what we're all about here. So, in a lot of ways, we have a similar mandate. We just do it in different ways.

Daniel Bennett

I love that. I love that, that ideology, it reminds me of being in Chicago and being on the architecture boat tour, and they're talking about how the buildings have conversations with each other.

Kathy and Daniel chat, with Lauren Rebelo recording

Kathy McLaughlin

Yes.

Daniel Bennett

And I feel like that's what we're doing. We have the past, the present, the future.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yes.

Daniel Bennett

Building, a city that that reflects and honours all of those things.

Kathy McLaughlin

That is uniquely its own city. We're not trying to be anyone else.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Kathy McLaughlin

So, it's always interesting when people come and say, "Oh, you should do what they do in Toronto, or you should do what they do in Stratford." Well, we're not Toronto, we're not Stratford. So, we have to do, and I'm sure you find that at the Grand as well, that we have to do things that are unique to London, Ontario that reflect our heritage, our community, and its makeup. You know, its citizens, its stories. And I really admire that the Grand has headed in that direction. Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

Thank you. I appreciate that. We're coming up to Talbot and King here, and which I'd say is where a lot of the shops and restaurants really start. So, is there a favorite spot you have in London? I know choose just one, right?

Kathy McLaughlin

It's impossible to choose just one. And this little section, this next block, I would say Jill's Table, and Abruzzi up there are a couple of favourites. Jill's has always been like a retail therapy spot for me. When I'm having a bad day, I can go in there and browse and talk to the staff or talk to Jill get re-inspired. And you know, find something new that I can do, something exciting and interesting that I didn't know about before, and it kind of takes me out of my day.

Jill's Table

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Kathy McLaughlin

And takes me somewhere else. Jill is an incredible marketer, an amazing retailer, she's an award-winning retailer. She goes to a lot of shows and conferences and is always honing her craft, is always on the look for the next big thing, the next big culinary item, whether it's a gadget, or, I think she does both, so I really have a lot of respect to her, she works very hard. During the pandemic, she pivoted pretty quickly and turned herself into a curbside delivery store, which took other folks a bit of time, but she was very quick in how she adapted to the pandemic and just thought about her customers' needs and how she could still fulfill them.

Daniel Bennett

Speaking about the pandemic, what have you been thinking about most during a pandemic?

Kathy McLaughlin

How much I miss live performances.

Daniel Bennett

Fair, me too.

Kathy McLaughlin

I'm not kidding. like truly, music and theatre are really important to me. So that's been hard. But also, I think what I've come to understand about all of this, and this time that we've had to reflect and kind of, you know, think about what's important is, you know, how our priorities are really narrowed and refined at a time like this, like you really, really discover what's important to you. But you also, I found for myself, and for business owners, too, it's kind of an opportunity to reinvent yourself a little bit, and to discover new things that you're thinking about, but you thought, oh, I'll never have time to do that. Well, the world gave us time to do a lot of things, and in my coaching and my work with some of the business owners that I've been talking to have been a little distraught, to be honest, some of them. I've encouraged them to think about what opportunities lie in front in front of them, not just the problems.

So, you know, what do you love about your business? What don't you love about your business? How can you change those pieces you don't love? You know, whether it's looking for new products to sell, or you know, a new style of service to provide, or, you know, completely reinventing yourself, all those options are possible now, we just have to have the courage to pursue them. And I'm really happy to say that some of the folks I work with have been re inspired and are taking themselves in a different direction. That's what I love about entrepreneurs is they're very adaptive. You know, when adversity comes along, they figure it out because failure is not an option, and I always enjoy working with folks like that. So, I have a lot of faith and confidence that many of our businesses will make it through...there's Mark...

Daniel Bennett

And how do you know Mark?

Kathy McLaughlin

And he's one of them. So, Mark is the owner of Waldo's.

Mark Kitching stands in front of Waldo's

Daniel Bennett

Fantastic.

Kathy McLaughlin

Just doing a podcast Mark.

Mark Kitching

Podcast, cool.

Kathy McLaughlin

And we're talking about amazing businesses downtown.

Mark Kitching

And there are some amazing businesses throughout the downtown.

Kathy McLaughlin

There's one right here. So, this business has been here for a while, and has...

Mark Kitching

Are you guys all together?

Kathy McLaughlin

Yeah, this is a group from the Grand Theatre. And we're doing a podcast. So, this business has been here for quite some time, it's a favorite, and it's a longtime favorite. But, of course, during the pandemic kind of got knocked on its back, got back up, though, in an amazing way, transformed a lot of the business to an online more of an online order system. And Mark also owns Mark's Fine Meats inside the market, and he's kind of combined the two services. So, you can call and order food to pick up or deliver, but he'll also get meat from his butcher shop for you, which is pretty incredible. And it's organic. It's fantastic. And it's just, this is a business owner, who is a survivor, and who will make it through this pandemic. I have no question of that.

Mark Kitching

We will make it through.

Kathy McLaughlin

It's been a lot.

Mark Kitching

It's amazing what 7 days a week, 10 hours a day will do for you.

Kathy McLaughlin

Exactly.

Daniel Bennett

Yep. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Mark.

Kathy McLaughlin

Thank you, Mark, it's good to see you. Take care.

Daniel Bennett

That's what I love about London, London as well, whether you're downtown, you're in Wortley, you always run into people you know.

Kathy McLaughlin

Always. But that's what people love about it, as you say, though, it's those casual collisions that can lead to new friendships or renewing old friendships, new business partnerships, new opportunities. That's why you know, the tech community likes to be downtown because they run into each other at coffee shops, and from that can come new projects.

Daniel Bennett

How do you facilitate these casual collisions? Or do you facilitate these casual collisions?

Kathy McLaughlin

Well, we facilitate it by making sure we have the right mix of businesses where people can gather and connect. So, that's where that becomes so important to us to ... to manage the mix. So there are enough of the right kind of businesses, that people can have the experiences they want to have downtown.

Daniel Bennett

We have this, we're just coming in on the Richmond Street construction right now, what's happening?

A sign posted alongside construction work downtown

 

Kathy McLaughlin

So, this is part of renewing 100-year-old sewer system, which is part of intensification, so that we can intensify/have more uses in the upper floors of these buildings, even, which is starting people are starting to redevelop them into apartments. But you know, that places a strain on the old sewer systems, so they had to be updated. And you know, while it's messy, during the pandemic, is probably not the worst time to be doing this.

We put up signs like this to kind of encourage people to think a little more kindly about the construction because it's hard. Everybody hates construction and disruption. But it's part of transformation too. And, you know, we're asking people, please still support these businesses, even though it's a little bit you know, messy to get to them, it's very important to us to make sure they survive the construction, as well as the pandemic, obviously. And, uh, just, we've been seeing a lot of people are showing a lot of support for local businesses, and it's so appreciated at a time like this. More than ever, supporting local is important.

Daniel Bennett

I love looking just down this end, we're looking down Richmond, from King Street here...

Construction on Richmond Street by City Lights Bookshop and its neighbouring shops

Kathy McLaughlin

South from King

Daniel Bennett

South on King, yeah, yeah, seeing all of these beautiful old buildings that are painted different colours, you really get the sense of the history of what the city might have looked like once upon a time.

Kathy McLaughlin

Absolutely, well, this is the most intact block of Victorian architecture in the city. So very important to us to preserve. We have touched most of the buildings in this block in terms of incentives, in terms of improvements, to try and make sure that these buildings survive and thrive, because each generation is just the steward of the buildings for their generation, then we pass it on, pass the baton to the next generation. So, we're just trying to keep these buildings viable, maintain their facades, you know, make sure they're up to code on the inside, building code and fire code, and we work really hard along with the city to make that happen, so that there'll be there for the next generation to enjoy.

Daniel Bennett

And so you speak about incentives, what kind of incentives are you offering?

Kathy McLaughlin

Oh, the city has loans, for facades, and for upgrades that are related to building code and fire code. For parts of the downtown, they also have an uplighting grant for the buildings. So, everything from signs and lighting to re-pointing brick, replacing brick, taking off old things, the fronts that might not have been the original storefronts, and replacing them with more authentic, more period-appropriate to the building and to the core, and there are heritage planners at the city that helped with that. So, it's not like we do that on our own. But yeah, it's kind of like a team effort to preserve the character.

And then there are projects like this building across the street here on King Street that has been bought by a developer and they want to tear it down, and there's some opposition with the heritage community, it's gone for appeal. I'm not sure exactly where it stands right now. But you know, you have to kind of weigh the benefits of keeping a building like this, that is not up to code, deteriorating inside, with a new development that will bring lots more residents to the core. So, there are always trade-offs, and I'm glad these aren't my decisions to make, because I see both sides. You know, I really do. Like we can't, we have to, you know, provide for progress, but we also have to preserve the history.

The building on King Street that Kathy describes

A mural on the side of the building

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. Okay, so what's exciting over here?

Kathy McLaughlin

Well, a couple of things are exciting here. So, if you look across the street, so we're at King and Clarence, you look north across the street, it's a parking lot. But what it's going to be is a residential development, that's exciting. So, in time, there will be three towers here, which will bring a lot of people into the core. I think they were looking at, you know, putting some students into those buildings, Fanshawe students as well. And also, other folks who are looking for housing downtown. So, it's really, it was one of those development projects that was challenged for a little while and was taken to the OMB for resolution, but it's back on track and it's going forward now.

So, very exciting times, more construction--I get it disruptive, unfortunate--but the good news story is this will bring more people to the core, which we absolutely need and have to encourage. So, you know, all of these cranes that we see in the sky, they're signs of progress. The one just up north there is One Richmond Row, and that is another great development that's going to be luxury apartments, they're a unique building design, and kind of the face of the future on Richmond Row.

Behind us is the old Novak's, which is an outdoors kind of store, very iconic in London. The Caplan family owned it for many years, the Novak families originated it, and the Caplan's operated it, and they retired, but now it is, it's the home of Reimagined Co., which is moving, so it's one of those places that we're constantly finding new tenants for it. So, it's a little bit of an incubator, without officially calling it an incubator. And we've worked with Titus Ferguson to help find tenants and, and to promote this as a location to start businesses. This place next door called Stache Fabrics and Notions. This was just being used for storage for a few years, and we saw it, we had a prospective tenant come and take a look at it. And they said, yeah, I'd really like to open my business here. So, it got all cleaned out, he changed his mind, so they had to find another tenant, but this now is home to Stache Fabrics and Notions, and they have all kinds of cool quilting kind of supplies. But she also has done, you know, brought in a lot of fabrics that people are buying for masks, and elastic to make masks. So, she's kind of reinvented a little bit of the business based on what people need right now. And it's got lovely planters outside, and this is a beautiful little home for her.

Yeah, very traditional storefront here too. So, this used to be red, yellow, and green paint. And we asked them if they could, you know, update that a little bit. So, they've done these lovely grey tones, and it really brings out the character in the old building. And we're just thrilled with how it looks. they've replaced the windows up, up top that really needed to be replaced. So, this is the kind of work we do like one building at a time, you know, work with the city and work with the owners to try and make these transformations happen. And give the buildings new life and create new opportunities for business owners to locate in the core.

Novacks

Daniel Bennett

That's great. Yeah, my mother, she lives in Oakville right now, but she is a quilter galore, and so every time-- every time she is like "do you know Stache? I'm gonna get you to pick up some stuff."

The storefront of Stache Fabrics & Notions

Kathy McLaughlin

Oh, seriously?

Daniel Bennett

Oh, yeah. She's all over the... she's on the quilting circuit.

Kathy McLaughlin

Oh, that's awesome. Go mom!

Daniel Bennett

We're just gonna turn left here to go up on Clarence.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yeah. With the hum of the construction equipment in the background, 'cause we're downtown.

Daniel Bennett

Do you know anything about that mural, that Bud Gowan mural?

Bud Gowan mural

Kathy McLaughlin

I do. So Bud Gowan is the fellow who used to own an antique shop right there. So that is a Tamburro mural, I believe. So, a family of local artists who are very talented. And this is kind of a tribute to what used to stand here, his antique store, which was established in 1957. So here we are in 2020, and Mr. Gowan retired not many years ago. So, he was a fixture in the downtown for sure. And every floor of that building was full of antiques. No, but he was ... he was one of our mainstays downtown for sure. One of the old-guard of business owners.

Daniel Bennett

Do you have any thoughts on how we increase diversity in the downtown core?

Kathy McLaughlin

It's good question. I think, you know, a part of it starts with, well, obviously making everybody feel welcome is part of it. But I think actively recruiting stores from diverse communities is helpful. Businesses, restaurants, you know, making people feel like they have a future here too. But sometimes it's you know, giving folks from different backgrounds, an opportunity to try something in a pop-up location, so they can see whether their idea works, because, you know, to commit to a rent every month, it's challenging for some people, if they don't know, if they don't have a good idea of what the business is going to produce, you know, so they need a good business model, a good financial model, and if they have a good financial model, then it can all work out.

Daniel Bennett

I love the idea of pop up stores because you know there are there's so many different cultural groups and a lot of times, they're on the, in the suburban areas of the city. So how are...

Kathy McLaughlin

Or in strip malls. Well, you know, that's often because of the rent that is less expensive, the farther out of the core, you are. And that's because the people in the core pay higher taxes than everybody else. And the real estate values... because the real estate values are higher. So, you know, are there rent subsidies? Are there programs like that that would be available to them? I don't know. But it's certainly something that would help, you know, and then once they're on their own two feet, then you know, it's full steam ahead, like a little spot like this would be a perfect little pop-up shop. So, the windows are just boarded because, you know, people don't want it broken into right now because there hasn't-- haven't been a lot of people downtown lately. But, you know.

Daniel Bennett

I think we're gonna have to put in the links of the in the links on the website, if you have a pop-up idea for this storefront, message Kathy.

Kathy McLaughlin

Call Kathy. Exactly. Yes, I would be all over that. Because we are talking to different landlords. Oh, look, here's our favourite, Grace. It's Roger.

Grace Restaurant

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. So, as we come to the corner of Clarence and Dundas here we have, well, my favourite restaurant in the city, Grace Restaurant, which is actually where we met, right, Kathy?

Kathy McLaughlin

It is. So, I have to admit, it's one of my favourites, too. I'm not allowed to have favourites. But it's one I come to frequently, let's say, how's that? Yeah. And it's a beautiful spot. It's an amazing transformation of a former Burger King, and a former chinese buffet restaurant. It is now beautiful local fine dining restaurant with a fantastic patio. Incredible staff, amazing chef. And it really has become a leader on Dundas Place, like Grace gets involved in every event that's going, they always make an effort to be part of. If the street's closed, they'll put things out on the patio or on the sidewalk on the patio, what they call their veranda because that's true to their brand. So, it's just one of those places that I admire, because they do everything at the highest level. And really, despite any adversity, keep coming back and doing just amazing work.

Daniel, Kathy and Lauren walk past planters on Dundas Street

Daniel Bennett

Is there anything special they've done during the pandemic?

Kathy McLaughlin

Oh, yeah, a lot of things actually. So, Grace was one of the first restaurants to really pivot during the pandemic. So, they closed for a very short period of time, and then quickly got gift cards up on the website so that you could buy gift cards to help support the restaurant in the early days of the pandemic. Following that, they set up an online store and created Grace Pantry. And Grace Pantry is a really cool idea.

So they recognize that people couldn't go to restaurants to eat, but they still needed food delivered to their homes or pick up food to take home in places other than grocery stores, because grocery stores were a little bit unreliable, let's say for a little while, as they figured out their supply chain and there and people, you know, were hoarding like crazy. So, we were all looking for alternative sources of food. So, Grace came through with Grace Pantry, which was an interesting idea. So, it was some prepared foods that they made in the restaurant, but it was also just products from their suppliers because Angie, the owner, wanted to keep her suppliers in business too. So, she has a community around her that she supports, and in turn, they support her. So the idea behind the pantry was, you know, let's all work together to keep these businesses going and get food for you, that is high quality, that is local, that is you know, the kind of food you want to be eating if you're stuck at home by yourself with nothing else to do. So, she did that, she delivered beautifully. And then when they allowed beer and wine sales, she added beer and wine sales.

So, they do some prepared foods, some baked goods, some, you know, just products from farmers and, you know, meat products and vegan products, and they really have thought about everybody's needs and have something for everyone. So, I really admire how they pivoted and again, you know, set up the patio very quickly. This was built by Angie's father and uncle I believe. So, it is a family labour of love, this place. Her parents helped to build the banquettes inside, those beautiful curved banquettes, and it really is just a lovely space. I mean, you just wouldn't believe it was a Burger King before. They really transformed it.

Daniel Bennett

Favourite dish?

Kathy McLaughlin

Oh, I don't know if I have just one. Last year it was the trout rillette. I just had it over and over again because it was such a light yet satisfying meal. Yeah, how about you? What's your favorite dish?

Daniel Bennett

Appetizers? I'd say the ricotta and I know the accoutrements change each time.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yes. That keeps it interesting.

Daniel Bennett

It does.

Kathy McLaughlin

Right? Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

It keeps you coming back because the staple that you love and but they're constantly reinventing. In terms of the mains, always loved the duck breast.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yes. I mean, there isn't a thing I've had that I have not enjoyed. I'll put it that way.

Daniel Bennett

Um, so as we head west down Dundas Street...

Kathy McLaughlin

Yes.

Daniel Bennett

I think the new brickwork is so beautiful. Can you tell me a little about it?

Kathy McLaughlin

Well, just that it is part of the plan for Dundas Place, I'm not sure exactly where it comes from. But it's kind of a nod to the old cobblestones much more stable than the cobblestones we had before though. So, there's been a lot of complaints about some of the cobble that's on the boulevards downtown because it's lifted over time. And the reason why that happened is because it didn't have a stabilized base. So, it was just, you know, put in sand. And, you know, we have a lot of heaving in the frost period and thawing in the spring. And it just it, you know, generally not conducive to cobble, but what they did here was they laid concrete as an underlayment and they put the stones into the concrete, so we shouldn't see that same shifting.

So, it just the stones give it the more charm or interest. If you take a look down the middle of the street, you'll see there's kind of a darker pattern that weaves and that's actually meant to resemble a river. And it's a nod to the Thames, and it leads down to the Thames River. So that was actually an idea that I talked about with my hairstylist, Jeff. And he came in and spoke to the folks in Planning and said, you know, there should be a better connection of the River and he had ideas. And I like to believe that that's part of what inspired this. Because you know, the city will listen to ideas that people have.

Daniel Bennett

And so, the idea is that this is a flex Street.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yes.

Daniel Bennett

Do you have insight into what was planned for this flex street?

Dundas Place signs on the downtown flex street

Kathy McLaughlin

Well, actually the manager of Dundas Place I think, about 13 festivals lined up for Dundas Place, until the pandemic. So unfortunately, they all had to be cancelled. So, then the challenge is, well, what can you do to make this the most exciting street in London during a pandemic, when people can't gather, and people can't get together and big numbers. So, we've been working with her on that.

We've been doing small activations, so where we'll, you know like hire a person playing guitar to go around and kind of serenade the patios, in a very, you know, kind of casual way. And we've also, the city also started closing Dundas Place on Friday night, Saturday and Sunday, after four I believe it is now so that we have at least some nice evenings on the patios without cars racing by. So, it's been an interesting start, it's really hard to tell, you know how successful it's been because of the restrictions with not being able to bring people in any great numbers together.

But I think we're encouraged by what we've seen up until now, that people generally are showing they do want to be out in the public a little bit more in a safe way, and the businesses are very accommodating with wearing masks and with doing all the things they need to do, all the handwashing protocols and hand sanitizers and barriers inside and all the things that will make people feel safe, because we want people to feel safe when they come downtown, for sure.

Daniel Bennett

And up on our right here we have the London Music Hall.

London Music Hall

Kathy McLaughlin

Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

And that beautiful sign there.

Kathy McLaughlin

So, this is a project that was eight years in the making, honestly, so we you know, we work with the business owners downtown, and for a long time, the main entrance of London Music Hall has been on the Queen's Ave. side of the building. And they kind of turned their back on Dundas Street. And, you know, for their own reasons, and I respect those reasons. I would always talk to the building owner though and say, hey, is this the year we're going to do something? And the answer will usually be no. And then just before like, about a year and a half before our Country Music Week came to London, Ontario, I said to him, you know what, we're gonna have a lot of people walking down Dundas looking at this, and this is supposed to be a major venue for Country Music Week. I mean, you know, record label parties are happening here, special concerts are happening here, maybe this is the time to improve the facade. So not just the sign, but the facade. And he said, yep, you're right.

So, got together with his architect, came up with the drawing. We got some folks from the city together, like heritage planner and urban design, and all the folks that need to have a say in these things. And one of them said, have you ever thought about doing a marquee? And he said, you'd let me do that?-- with shock, he just thought, oh, this city would never let me do anything that interesting that overhangs the sidewalk. But they said yeah, no, let's do it. Let's think about it. And that's kind of how this whole thing was conceived that it was just a collaboration of city folks, and an architect and the building owner and they wanted digital signage, which was not allowed under the bylaw. So, we had a special meeting about that. But at the end, it all came together. It all came together and they got what they needed, and as a result, we have a fantastic performance venue downtown that currently isn't being used. And interesting side note, the building business owner, and building owner, is currently building pools this summer, because they can't do what they love to do. Unfortunate, but you know, you got to put food on the table, and he's got a number of families that he's supporting. So that's what they decided to do, they were already in the construction business previously anyway. So, it's just a little bit of a leap to get into the pool building.

Daniel Bennett

That's more of that innovation you're talking about?

Kathy McLaughlin

Well, true, like really pivoted, like outside of their own industry. But you know, we'd love nothing more than to see them open again and see all those concerts happening at the Music Hall and Rumrunners. It's an important entertainment venue, it's a place that brings people downtown, it brings people together, we have the most, you know, unique and exciting experiences you can't have anywhere else. They have a great you know, they have great programming, they have great people working for them that book, interesting up and coming bands, as well as you know, very popular bands that you would never think would come to a smaller venue, but they do. So, we're thrilled to have the London Music Hall here, and we need it to survive. And you know, there's a lot of funding for everybody else. But there doesn't seem to be funding for businesses like this. So, I think we still have work to do in terms of, you know, economic resilience to put some solutions in place for businesses like this. So, they can ... they can continue on into the future, not knowing how long the pandemic's going to last or when we can next get together. It would be really nice to be able to show them some love too.

Daniel Bennett

And so, you're talking about facilitating conversations between the city and between businesses. What is your philosophy when facilitating these conversations?

Kathy McLaughlin

So, when you bring people together, magic happens. It's that one plus one equals three thing. We are connectors, we know a lot of people. So, we make a lot of introductions, we'll, you know, create a lot of introductory meetings. And you know, the creativity happens in those meetings, and long after those meetings are over. We're just trying to help people see what's possible. You know, we find when we work with groups of people that sometimes, especially when it's dealing with municipal officials, people will assume they can't do the things they want to do. And they'll say, you know, well, I just can't do that, because nobody will let me. And my response is that, you know, well, the first no is not the last answer, and we can help you get to yes. You know, and it might not be everything you want, but it can be enough that you'll be happy. Because the first no is not the last answer. Oh, I haven't seen these ones yet. So Fahri hired Richard Denomme to do all of the boards that he has on his buildings, the vacant buildings, with messaging of you know, hope and inspiration. So that's what these are all about.

Love Wins mural

Daniel Bennett

And so, we're going to turn right here on to Richmond and head up towards Vic Park. Um, oh, look at ... look at these. And as we walk through downtown it, it is it's hard not to notice some of the vacant storefronts as well as some of the poverty that's downtown.

Kathy McLaughlin

Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

So, what are solutions? How do we, what are solutions moving forward?

Kathy McLaughlin

Oh, that's a big question.

Daniel Bennett

Big big question.

Kathy and Daniel walk down Richmond Street toward Victoria Park

Kathy McLaughlin

Very big question. So, I guess in terms of issues like homelessness, poverty, mental health, addiction issues, those kinds of things, the city actually has a 69-point plan called the Core Area Action Plan that was approved and funded, and was going to be implemented before COVID hit. So, we are waiting for the city to do more of that work. You know, they can't maybe do all of the work that they needed to because they understand budgets have been modified and staff have been laid off. But there still is an opportunity to address some of those issues through that plan.

And in terms of filling vacant storefronts, it's going to be interesting, I think we need to be a little bit more creative, and rather than our traditional ways, and maybe do more pop up shops, maybe do more incubators, you know, shorter term leases, to give people a chance to get their business up and running before they commit to longer terms. You know, maybe some adjustments in the rents, you know, that's not something anyone likes to hear, because nobody's reducing their taxes, unfortunately, so or at least it doesn't seem to be working as well, with the rent relief as we had hoped it would. It's a very wide-ranging plan. It went way farther than I thought it would for sure. It talks about parking, it talks about housing, it talks about social programs, it talks about mental health, as well as activations that we can do downtown to make it more lively, to make it more vibrant. So, it is a really far-reaching plan. And you know, I give the city a lot of credit for coming up with this. And for you know, committing some budget dollars to it. And you know, when the time is right, they'll implement different pieces of it, and we're very hopeful that it will have an impact.

You know, we're not going through anything that's any different from other cities, but I think what's different from other cities is we have this multi-point plan to address it. You know, I mean, obviously, mental health issues and addiction issues, that's not just a municipal issue, those are, you know, healthcare-related, tends to be more provincial and federal, in its mandate. But until we get a more fulsome plan from those levels, we have to start somewhere. So, I am very encouraged that our city made that commitment and hopeful that it will have an impact.

So, we talked earlier about diversity. Diversity of business owners, and you know, people coming from different communities and opening businesses here, you know, trying their craft, you know, plying their trade. So, there was one coffee shop on Dundas Place for a couple of years, and it was owned by two Romanian ladies. And they started out their business with some pastries that, you know, you could find in a lot of different locations. They were sourced from Toronto, they were bought frozen, brought in, and baked, and they were delicious, but there was nothing unique about them. So, we started talking about, you know, attracting more customers, because they weren't happy with the number of customers that were visiting them. And I talked about, you know, their unique culture, and what they make; their specialties. And I encouraged them to try making some of those specialties and bringing them in. And they did, and they proved to be very popular, not only with the community downtown, but also with the Romanian community who started frequenting their business because they had specialties they wanted. So, it really was a good strategy.

Daniel Bennett

And so, I'm taking from that don't do what you think people want. Do what you know, and what excites you.

Kathy McLaughlin

I mean, you also have to ask people what they want, but, and listen, but also, don't be afraid to try. Don't be afraid to try new things. If they're things that are popular in your culture, they might be popular to others as well. And those specialties are kind of what we hang our hat on downtown. You can have those unique experiences that you don't have elsewhere.

Daniel Bennett

And of course, on our left-hand side here we have...

Kathy McLaughlin

Well we just happen to have World Curious and London Proud, the fabulous Grand Theatre, which is honestly not because you're here, honestly one of my favorite places in London. I've been so impressed with the work over the years and particularly lately, going in a very bold and brave new direction with great results. And I'm very much looking forward to coming back to the Grand. I was very sorry that I didn't get to see what the production of Room, but hopefully we'll be able to come again.

Daniel Bennett

Hopefully.

Kathy McLaughlin

And see it.

Daniel Bennett

And coming up on the right here is one of my favorite places - Commonwealth Coffee - because I am a doughnut lover.

Kathy McLaughlin

Oh yeah. Really. Is that like a human thing? I feel like that's a human thing.

Daniel Bennett

And if you don't like doughnuts, yeah, you're not a human.

Kathy McLaughlin

Super popular. So, Boxcar started as this little pop up inside of Commonwealth and has become its own thing, right? It's become incredibly popular during the pandemic. And all these x's on the sidewalk are for people who line up to come and get their orders. So, you gotta love that.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, I feel I think my, what my first week I had 13 Boxcar doughnuts.

Kathy McLaughlin

No.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, the first week.

Kathy McLaughlin

Seriously? You’re my new hero.

Daniel Bennett

And then as we pass here on the left, it's that building you were talking about, One Richmond Row?

Kathy McLaughlin

Yes. Yeah, it's interesting design. You know, in terms of varying the colours, and the levels are kind of askew some of them, so visually, very interesting. Makes me wonder what it would be like to be inside there.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. Do you get a little bit of that askew-ness as you're, as you're living?

Kathy McLaughlin

I wonder if the floors are tilted. You know, things roll off the counter, will you ever get them again? No, but seriously, it's a very interesting looking building. And, you know, I think the city has been challenging developers to come up with more unique and interesting designs, not just the plain glass boxes that we've come to see, you know, with concrete and no real interest, no visual appeal. We're seeing a lot more interesting designs now. And again, that's a credit to the developers who, you know, it costs more to develop product that way, but it also I think, has more longevity. Really will stand the test of time.

Daniel Bennett

Where do you think London has the most room to grow?

Kathy McLaughlin

In the core.

Daniel Bennett

In the core?

Kathy McLaughlin

In the core, for sure. Yeah, like there's unlimited potential here, I believe. If there are people who believe in it, it will develop. (church bells chiming in background) it will redevelop. Downtowns keep reinventing themselves as the world changes, as you know, people change. And I think you're always going to have time for the heart of your city. You need to care about the heart of your city. It's you know, the beating heart of the whole entity. This is the place where people gather. You know, when we win, you know, international hockey competitions, we don't go out to the mall to celebrate, we come downtown. It is the heart. It's where we come to gather, and where I hope we continue to come together when we're allowed to gather again.

Daniel Bennett

And as we come up on Vic Park, one of my favorite places to gather, play Spikeball with friends. So, anything you can tell me about Vic Park?

Kathy, Lauren and Daniel end their walk at Victoria Park

Kathy McLaughlin

So, Victoria Park, obviously best known for our festivals, and those are very exciting, and we're missing them very much. I know a lot of Londoners are; the music, the arts and crafts, but also, you know, it's the people watching, let's be honest. And it was our first gathering place down in the core too when you know, our city was very young. This was where the garrison was stationed and quartered. So, because of that, it's an important heritage site. And you cannot dig anything here without heritage permission because of that. I tried to do a fiber optic cable installation in the park, and it required a very expensive heritage dig, we needed a consultant to work with us on it. And because there's lots of artifacts still, they believe, under that soil. So, it's an important part of our history and our origin story. I should say the settlers’ origin story, obviously.

But there's something special about Victoria Park. I mean in the summer and in the winter, like in the winter, it has all the beautiful lights. I mean, I enjoy it equally in both seasons. I really do. In the winter, it's cool to come and see the people skating and see all the trees lit up for the holiday season and Santa's house and the kids get excited by Santa's house and it's just alive with that energy, that excitement that comes at that time of year.

Daniel Bennett

Awesome. Thanks so much for your time Kathy, it was a pleasure talking today.

Kathy McLaughlin

You're welcome. Good to talk to you.

Daniel Bennett

Thanks for coming on a Grand Walk with me. Wow, Kathy's fervor is palpable. I love her passion for innovation and can-do attitude. This podcast was recorded in late August and we're currently in October, so it's a little bonkers to think about what's already changed. With many of the more ‘white collar’ jobs continuing to work from home for the foreseeable future, I hope we can continue to support the businesses that are already there and continue to develop the downtown, so when we're back to whatever our new normal will be, we have a vibrant downtown to return to.

I should also note that the brickwork on the Infotech parking lot is herringbone, not houndstooth. I was listening and was like "what kind of designer are you Daniel?"

The Grand Walks would not be possible without our lovely team here at the Grand, including Dennis Garnhum, Deb Harvey, Lauren Rebelo, Jen Matthews, Aaron Oullette, Suzanne Lanthier, Lyndee Hansen, Britt Duncan, Lacie George, and Megan Watson. Special thanks to friends Rob Novakovic and Frank Donato for brainstorming with me. Thanks again and looking forward to getting some more steps in with you soon.